Why would you say cooperation isn’t just important, but also cooperation with certain Baptist distinctives?
It’s kind of like a railroad track. You have to have two parts: The cooperation is we work together, the conviction is we work together because we are doctrinally aligned because it brings trust. By the way, I love people who are outside the Southern Baptist Convention. The kingdom of God is a lot bigger than the Southern Baptist Convention. There are areas in which we can work with people who don’t share all of our denominational convictions, and that’s okay also. I have some wonderful brothers and sisters in Christ who would disagree with us on some things. But when it comes to our cooperation and the intense financial cooperation we have, there do have to be some doctrinal distinctives.
And so, my first Pillar of Renewal is convictional clarity, because I think there has been some erosion of that over the last few years. I don’t think the Southern Baptist Convention is hurtling into compromise. But there have been some voices. There have been some tension points over those issues. The reason people are having debates right now about the nature of “what is a pastor and who can be a pastor”?Well, that’s part of that erosion also. I think there has been some compromise on how we approach issues in the secular context, talking about some of the real difficult social issues of the day. There’s been a tempering in our voice in those things.
Could you give an example of what you’re talking about when you say some compromises on social issues in the world? What would some of those social issues be?
When I say compromise, I don’t believe Southern Baptists have renounced or repudiated what they believe. I don’t believe we got to that point. But I do believe you heard at very high levels, among some people, this idea that, in order to be effective at our gospel mission, we could not talk about the controversial cultural issues. The way I heard it expressed was, you can’t be a gospel mission/cultural warrior at the same time. And that kind of sounds good, because cultural warrior sounds pejorative. It sounds negative. I don’t want to wake up every day and be a disputatious, contagious warrior. But the practical line of thinking is this: If you want to reach people and grow your church, you can’t talk about the controversial issues. That what’s behind that line of thinking. You can’t talk about sexuality. You can’t talk about gender. You can’t talk about the definition of marriage. You don’t want a transgender issue — those kinds of hot button cultural issues. And there was a whole sentiment of thinking that, “You know what? We’re not going to talk about those things. You get people in the church, and then later on, we’ll talk about that.” And I think that was a profound mistake.
Do you think, then, that Southern Baptists are too quiet on those issues?
I think we have been too quiet. I think early on we were tiptoeing around when a lot of other people were speaking loudly and clearly. And then once the tide sort of began to turn, then people jumped in there. I think we had people outside of Southern Baptists, who were a lot stronger and a lot louder, and a lot more effective in battling some of those issues than some of our people were. Because I think we were taught — and it goes back into kind of the “third wayism,” popularized by the Keller model, which was the third way — was, “Don’t talk about those issues. You know, focus on the gospel issues, and then you’ll talk about those later.” It’s a fundamental mistake. Because I think in order to be effective as gospel missionaries, you have to be able to talk about the truth. People need you to be able to talk about the truth. So I do think our voice was tempered … . I will just say, I think there was a tempering of our voice, a softening of our voice. I hope we’re getting over that. I hope we’re reclaiming that prophetic mantle, Southern Baptist strong. We should be bold, we should be courageous, and we should not be embarrassed by holding those kind of biblical positions, even when they’re on controversial issues.
What’s one thing that you hope to change through your influence if you were to be the president?
Well, one of the things I hear as I’ve talked to pastors — I’ve done a lot, Mary Margaret, in talking to pastors and leaders — is I feel like there has been an erosion of institutional trust. I think that’s one of the reasons you’re seeing the declining Cooperative Program giving. I think there’s just an erosion — and some of that is cultural, but some of that is more specific to some of the things they’ve seen, some of the things that have happened, some of the things that have concerned people over the last few years …
I would hope to be able to restore some institutional trust — in a lot of pastors and a lot of leaders who feel like they haven’t been heard. They haven’t been listened to. They feel like they’ve been dismissed, because maybe they raise their hand and they ask a tough question. Or maybe they’ve voiced even a critical comment … . And instead of being heard and respected, they feel marginalized. I would like to change that. I want people to know they’ve got a seat at the table. I want people to know that if they’ve got something to say — which, leaders should be humble — we need a lot less lecturing and a lot more listening from some of our leaders.
What was your position on the Law Amendment regarding complementarianism?
Well, I was very much for the Law Amendment … but I’ve also called for a task force, a task force that would address the issue of the understanding and use of the term “pastor” among Baptist people. And you could read about that on my website, because I think a task force report allows you to give a larger and longer statement — whereas a constitutional amendment is binding, it gives you kind of organizational authority. I feel like a report, a task force report, could be instructional … because I do think there are people who have asked questions about, “How is this amendment going to be enforced? How is it going to be applied? Is it going to be used in a draconian fashion to try to punish all women in vocational ministry?”
And I don’t think that’s true or that was ever the intent, but I think a task force report could clarify that and make it very, very clear. We’re talking about the office of pastor/elder/overseer. We’re not talking about all women who are serving in areas of vocational ministry. There are many areas of vocational ministry and non-vocational ministry that people serve in that are different and distinct as a pastor/elder/overseer. So, I was very much in favor of the Law Amendment, and I’m in favor of this renewed amendment [from Al Mohler] that will probably come before the convention in Orlando.
What are three characteristics that you hope to be known for if you are elected as president?
I hope to be known for compassion. I love the Southern Baptist Convention. I want people to say, “He loves us. He loves all of us.” I hope I would be known for the willingness to listen and to sit down and say, “Okay, just because somebody disagrees, or just because somebody has an opinion, or just because maybe they voiced it in a sharp way that offended you, it doesn’t mean you dismiss people. You listen to the pain behind the person. You listen to the concern behind the questions.” And that’s what I would hope to be, that they would say, “You know what? Here’s a compassionate person. He loves Southern Baptists.” I hope they would say, “Here is a person who is patient and willing to listen. He will listen to the concerns of Southern Baptists, and not just people who voted for him.” I would hope to be the president of all the people, that our family would unite, whether Josh becomes elected, or I become elected …
But I hope I would be straightforward and honest with people that they would say, “If he’s got something to say, he is courageous.” I guess courage, you know, is what you hope — courage to say what needs to be said when it needs to be said, you don’t duck the hard issues, and you don’t duck the hard questions. We don’t just try to get through this. I don’t want to be a PR person. I don’t want to go around and just give nice speeches and cut ribbons … . Other people can do that. I want to address the hard issues.
I would love to be known for the courage of our convictions. I would love to be known for the compassion of our character. And I would love to be known as a person who would consider and listen to other people.
If you missed part one, read it here.